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Active member
Perspective
Perspective
I’m an outsider in this ongoing debate - I know people working at both companies.
I have been a victim of the “BOTL and function according to your position on the list” policy. Very unpleasant having this rammed down your throat by a Union that is supposed to be representing your interests.
At the end of the year - I thought it would be appropriate to share my thoughts and perhaps offer some perspective.
There is nothing like Seniority to bring out all the worst characteristics in Pilots.
This last characteristic is why our industry is in such a mess. We have no-one to blame but ourselves.
Before anyone starts - I’m guilty of most of the above as well. Because of that I won’t comment on individual posts/posters.
After reading this thread a few things should be clear to all of you.
None of the above have a future in their present form imho - changes need to be made.
Seniority
The origins of the seniority system can be traced back to the start of commercial aviation in the US in the 1930’s. The present system dates back almost 80 years!
“Fate is the Hunter” - Ernest K. Gann deals with these times. Should be mandatory reading for all Pilots.
It shouldn’t come as a surprise that this system is at its most extreme in North America. Seniority determines your whole life - where you live/what you fly/where you fly to/when you fly. This system benefits those at the top whilst those at the bottom get screwed. The attitude of those at the top is “Your time will come”. What this fails to address is that there are no guarantees you will ever reach the top.
The biggest problems occur during mergers or Bankruptcy. Everyone fights to keep their place on the list. It gets very unpleasant very quickly. People have had their careers wiped out almost overnight and have either lost or had to accept retirement at a fraction of the income they were expecting. None of this was their fault yet they are paying the price for it. I’m not familiar with any Airline merger that has been successful. I am familiar with one case where the planned integration of the regional carrier with the mainline resulted in the Union being thrown out at the mainline. The lawsuits over “Common Employer” are still going on after almost 20 years. Madness!
For everyone that has benefitted from this system there are far more people that have been screwed by this system. I work with an American colleague who has retired from a big US carrier where he was one of the most senior Pilots. Working at my Airline has been a real eye opener for him as he is finally experiencing what “reality” is for most of us. We have some interesting discussions about Unions and Seniority!
Perhaps some of you have never realised this but a Seniority system is really a form of control. Neither Management or Union wants to get rid of the system - why should they? Both benefit from having a pool of Pilots that can’t leave because they will have to start at the bottom at another Airline. And of course it’s easy to get this group to rally around the Union when their place on the list is under some kind of “threat”. Fear can make otherwise rational people behave in a very irrational manner.
As Pilots we like to compare ourselves to skilled Professionals. However I don’t see them having either a Seniority system or a Union (at least not the traditional Union like Pilots have). This seems to work out fine for them - they simply market their talents in a free market environment where they chose their employer based on what that employer is offering.
Finally in my own career I have never benifitted from being part of a Seniority system. I have been promoted out of Seniority and at my present employer I have even switched types even though I am a contract employee. My last three jobs have been as DEC and my next job should it become necessary will also be as DEC. My terms and conditions are dictated by the laws of supply and demand and are currently on an upward trend once again.
Any System that causes division and turns people against each other is broken.
Salary
Once again a Type based salary has it’s origins in the 1930’s where Pilots were paid more as larger aircraft were introduced into the fleet. This was the only way to get more money.
Again such a system has no place in the present day. Once again this system is a form of control and Management and Unions are quite happy to keep it this way. Your place on the list determines how much you make. Under a straight salary scale this is much less of an issue.
Why any salary system has age as part of the salary calculation is beyond me - anyone want to enlighten me?
A lot of companies only have 2 salary scales - one for F/O and one for Captains. Within each scale there are steps usually based on years of service.
Under this system aircraft type becomes a personal choice - not everyone wants to fly long haul.
It also allows Pilots to fly more than one Type of aircraft - I have flown 757/767 A320/A330 and A330/A340 mixed fleet and I’ve really enjoyed it. At my employer we get a Type Allowance which is higher for flying mixed fleet as we are more productive. It also allows companies to switch Types depending on the loads but continue to operate with the same crew. My last London flight was A340 outbound and A330 on the return sector.
VNV
I have made my views on this Union quite clear over the years. My views are based on my personal experiences with them at three different Airlines. At each company they were given a fresh opportunity to prove themselves - they failed every time.
They have a very poor record when it comes to representing the minority as has been stated in one of the previous posts - my personal experiences confirm this.
It is simply not possible for one Union to be all things to all members especially when dealing with different Airlines. “All VNV members are equal - but some members are more equal than others” (apologies to George Orwell).
Given the above it amazes me that people expect the VNV to come up with an acceptable solution. It’s not logical.
The VNV is part of the problem not part of the solution.
There has been a suggestion that they have learned from past mistakes. I very much doubt that.
Finally
No matter what happens during the next year there will be unhappy people.
Remember that there is nothing in your contract that says you have to put up with it. “Voting with your feet” is also a choice. I’ve done it in the past and I’ll do it again in the future should it become necessary. There are limits to what I’m prepared to put up with.
The World is a big place - plenty of options. Changing jobs isn’t the end of the World.
The best advice I can give is not to worry about what others are doing - not important.
Make the choices that are right for you.
A Happy New Year to all - best wishes for 2011.
Perspective
I’m an outsider in this ongoing debate - I know people working at both companies.
I have been a victim of the “BOTL and function according to your position on the list” policy. Very unpleasant having this rammed down your throat by a Union that is supposed to be representing your interests.
At the end of the year - I thought it would be appropriate to share my thoughts and perhaps offer some perspective.
There is nothing like Seniority to bring out all the worst characteristics in Pilots.
- Greed
- Hypocrisy
- Selfishness
- Arrogance
- Failure to see the “Big Picture”
- Short term thinking
- Complete inability to put the group ahead of the individual.
This last characteristic is why our industry is in such a mess. We have no-one to blame but ourselves.
Before anyone starts - I’m guilty of most of the above as well. Because of that I won’t comment on individual posts/posters.
After reading this thread a few things should be clear to all of you.
- - Seniority is a broken system.
- - Salary based on age and Type is a broken system.
- - The VNV is a broken union.
None of the above have a future in their present form imho - changes need to be made.
Seniority
The origins of the seniority system can be traced back to the start of commercial aviation in the US in the 1930’s. The present system dates back almost 80 years!
“Fate is the Hunter” - Ernest K. Gann deals with these times. Should be mandatory reading for all Pilots.
It shouldn’t come as a surprise that this system is at its most extreme in North America. Seniority determines your whole life - where you live/what you fly/where you fly to/when you fly. This system benefits those at the top whilst those at the bottom get screwed. The attitude of those at the top is “Your time will come”. What this fails to address is that there are no guarantees you will ever reach the top.
The biggest problems occur during mergers or Bankruptcy. Everyone fights to keep their place on the list. It gets very unpleasant very quickly. People have had their careers wiped out almost overnight and have either lost or had to accept retirement at a fraction of the income they were expecting. None of this was their fault yet they are paying the price for it. I’m not familiar with any Airline merger that has been successful. I am familiar with one case where the planned integration of the regional carrier with the mainline resulted in the Union being thrown out at the mainline. The lawsuits over “Common Employer” are still going on after almost 20 years. Madness!
For everyone that has benefitted from this system there are far more people that have been screwed by this system. I work with an American colleague who has retired from a big US carrier where he was one of the most senior Pilots. Working at my Airline has been a real eye opener for him as he is finally experiencing what “reality” is for most of us. We have some interesting discussions about Unions and Seniority!
Perhaps some of you have never realised this but a Seniority system is really a form of control. Neither Management or Union wants to get rid of the system - why should they? Both benefit from having a pool of Pilots that can’t leave because they will have to start at the bottom at another Airline. And of course it’s easy to get this group to rally around the Union when their place on the list is under some kind of “threat”. Fear can make otherwise rational people behave in a very irrational manner.
As Pilots we like to compare ourselves to skilled Professionals. However I don’t see them having either a Seniority system or a Union (at least not the traditional Union like Pilots have). This seems to work out fine for them - they simply market their talents in a free market environment where they chose their employer based on what that employer is offering.
Finally in my own career I have never benifitted from being part of a Seniority system. I have been promoted out of Seniority and at my present employer I have even switched types even though I am a contract employee. My last three jobs have been as DEC and my next job should it become necessary will also be as DEC. My terms and conditions are dictated by the laws of supply and demand and are currently on an upward trend once again.
Any System that causes division and turns people against each other is broken.
Salary
Once again a Type based salary has it’s origins in the 1930’s where Pilots were paid more as larger aircraft were introduced into the fleet. This was the only way to get more money.
Again such a system has no place in the present day. Once again this system is a form of control and Management and Unions are quite happy to keep it this way. Your place on the list determines how much you make. Under a straight salary scale this is much less of an issue.
Why any salary system has age as part of the salary calculation is beyond me - anyone want to enlighten me?
A lot of companies only have 2 salary scales - one for F/O and one for Captains. Within each scale there are steps usually based on years of service.
Under this system aircraft type becomes a personal choice - not everyone wants to fly long haul.
It also allows Pilots to fly more than one Type of aircraft - I have flown 757/767 A320/A330 and A330/A340 mixed fleet and I’ve really enjoyed it. At my employer we get a Type Allowance which is higher for flying mixed fleet as we are more productive. It also allows companies to switch Types depending on the loads but continue to operate with the same crew. My last London flight was A340 outbound and A330 on the return sector.
VNV
I have made my views on this Union quite clear over the years. My views are based on my personal experiences with them at three different Airlines. At each company they were given a fresh opportunity to prove themselves - they failed every time.
They have a very poor record when it comes to representing the minority as has been stated in one of the previous posts - my personal experiences confirm this.
It is simply not possible for one Union to be all things to all members especially when dealing with different Airlines. “All VNV members are equal - but some members are more equal than others” (apologies to George Orwell).
Given the above it amazes me that people expect the VNV to come up with an acceptable solution. It’s not logical.
The VNV is part of the problem not part of the solution.
There has been a suggestion that they have learned from past mistakes. I very much doubt that.
Finally
No matter what happens during the next year there will be unhappy people.
Remember that there is nothing in your contract that says you have to put up with it. “Voting with your feet” is also a choice. I’ve done it in the past and I’ll do it again in the future should it become necessary. There are limits to what I’m prepared to put up with.
The World is a big place - plenty of options. Changing jobs isn’t the end of the World.
The best advice I can give is not to worry about what others are doing - not important.
Make the choices that are right for you.
A Happy New Year to all - best wishes for 2011.
