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Terms and Conditions: An Education
Disclaimer:- I have used several real world examples to illustrate my points. This is not an attack on Airline X or Y – but some companies are worse offenders than others. My examples should be considered “education only”.
Disclaimer – some of my examples may seem to refer to certain individuals. It is not my intention to single anyone out as I know damn well that if A says no B-Z will happily do it instead.
Secondly I am guilty of doing a number of the things that I have listed – can't attack anyone for doing things I have done.
Again my examples should be considered “education only”. You don't have to make the same mistakes as me (although some of you appear hell-bent on making even worse ones)
Introduction
Recent postings on these Forums indicate that some people have no idea what Terms and Conditions are considered “Normal” or “Industry Standard”. In addition there appears to be an incredible level of naïveté present among a lot of posters on this board.
I'm watching developments in the Industry with great concern. As normal Holland is once again leading the way in the “Race to the Bottom”. It's a disgrace that there is now an Airline that functions like an employment agency. They see Pilots as some kind of temp workers. A quick read on their website clearly shows their “toss 'em in the dumpster when we no longer need them” attitude.
All the most unpleasant people I have encountered in this Industry have been in Holland. That includes the biggest liars/thieves/frauds/criminals and most arrogant incompetent clowns I have ever come across.
“Fly at any Price”
I see this mentality in a lot of the posts on the board. Some people will sign any contract no matter how bad the terms. People either don't know or don't care – both attitudes are unacceptable.
The idea seems to be to gain experience any way you can then use this as a stepping stone to a better job. Whilst this may have worked in the past – times have changed. I have a simple question for those of you who think like this.
Where are you going to go?
I'll answer that for you: Nowhere.
There are virtually no jobs so you are stuck at Airline X or Y for the foreseeable future. The problem is that if terms and conditions are crap you're stuck with them as well.
Crap terms and conditions in your 20's doesn't sound too bad? The Ends justify the Means?
How about crap terms and conditions in your 40's? How does that sound?
How will you ever pay off your training costs? Simple; You will be unable.
Retirement? You can forget ever being able to do that. There's a reason your colleagues are working as long as possible.
“I don't care about Terms and Conditions – I just want to fly big shiny airplanes!”
Another common tone in a lot of the threads on this board. Well I have news for you. By accepting sub standard Terms and Conditions you are putting pressure on the rest of us. You may be happy flying big shiny airplanes for 50% of what you should be making with secondary benefits that are a joke – but I'm not!
When your actions jeopardise my Terms and Conditions – rest assured I will say something as one Professional to another.
Some examples of sub standard Terms and Conditions
Paying to have your application processed.
Comment:- What most people don't seem to realise is recruitment is a two way street. Not only are you trying to convince the company to hire you – the company should also be trying to convince you that you want to work for them. It has to be a match from both sides. Paying to apply leaves a bad first impression.
Paying cash for a Type Rating
I'm not talking about self sponsored Type Ratings – I'm talking about an Airline that makes you pay cash for your training. We've had examples where people paid Euro 45000 for a Type Rating (which cost about half that). They got back 15000 after one year – but they had to pay tax on this as it was seen as income – oops!
Others paid Euro 30000 for a Type Rating and ended up with no cash/no job/no Type Rating.
Everyone who did this got screwed – even if some of them would like to pretend that this wasn't the case.
Mixed Fleet Flying (Flying multiple aircraft types) for free
Flying multiple aircraft types means you are more productive for the company. More productivity = more money. That's the real reason so many companies don't fly mixed fleet – they don't want to pay more.
I get paid extra for flying A330/A340 mixed fleet because I'm more productive.
Mixed fleet flying being done with no extra compensation equates to a salary decrease (higher productivity for the same money). Of course once the precedent has been set everyone else will get the same terms and conditions. Nice!
Signing a bond for a second Type Rating
That is not normally the case (although it is now being introduced at several Airlines around the world). You are bonded for your first Type Rating with the company only - second and subsequent ratings have no bond. Again once a precedent has been set everyone else will have to accept the same conditions.
Non Flying duties
Some people will have the chance to do other things beside flying (eg:- Ground Instruction). If you do extra work for the company make sure you are compensated accordingly. Do not work for free. If you weren't doing the job they'd have to hire someone – more expensive then paying you.
Pensions
This is another area people don't pay any attention to – until it is too late. The fact that colleagues are working as long as possible because they have to should be a wake up call that action needs to be taken.
I heard that a former colleague has had to sell everything as his Pension was inadequate.
Think you are going to be OK? Guess again!
Understand that pensions are exponential in nature. The biggest part of your pension is compounded interest.
Example:- The money you put in your pension doubles every 10 years.
Over 40 years that will look like this (oversimplified to make a point).
1/2/4/8 For every 1 unit you put in you end up with 8 units after 40 years
Now look at what happens if you only have 20 years of pension
1/2 For every one untit you put in you end up with only 2 units after 20 years.
You end up with only 1/4 of what you would have had for 40 years. The initial investment is critical to the final amount. The longer that money grows the higher your pension will be.
Too many people have no clue what their Pension will look like. It takes a few hours of time to get an independent advisor to run the numbers for you. Some of you will be shocked at how little you will end up with.
Signing a bond for a Type Rating the company gets for free
When an Airline leases a brand new aircraft this includes a standard “package” that includes training for 6 crews. This training carries minimal costs for the company. If your company is training at the manufacturers headquarters this is why.
Is it reasonable to be bonded for training that the company gets for free?
Getting screwed over and over again
From posts on this Forum it is clear to me that some people have been screwed everytime they've signed a contract. I really think that some people are so naïve they're not even aware of the impact of their actions.
One of the most tragic posts I have ever seen on this Forum was from an individual who stated that Airline X was a benefit because it led to Airline Y etc. etc. What this poster failed to understand was that he was getting screwed at Airline X then getting screwed at Airline Y etc. etc.
Runner up - all the posts about an Airline that was so badly run they couldn't even pay their staff on time. There were no shortage of people defending this Airline (while they were getting screwed by the same company they were defending!). One thread about this Airline had over 30000 views!
That's part one. If I've missed anything please feel free to add to my post.
Coming (soon) in part 2: Strategies that are used to screw you whilst keeping you dumb and happy.
Disclaimer:- I have used several real world examples to illustrate my points. This is not an attack on Airline X or Y – but some companies are worse offenders than others. My examples should be considered “education only”.
Disclaimer – some of my examples may seem to refer to certain individuals. It is not my intention to single anyone out as I know damn well that if A says no B-Z will happily do it instead.
Secondly I am guilty of doing a number of the things that I have listed – can't attack anyone for doing things I have done.
Again my examples should be considered “education only”. You don't have to make the same mistakes as me (although some of you appear hell-bent on making even worse ones)
Introduction
Recent postings on these Forums indicate that some people have no idea what Terms and Conditions are considered “Normal” or “Industry Standard”. In addition there appears to be an incredible level of naïveté present among a lot of posters on this board.
I'm watching developments in the Industry with great concern. As normal Holland is once again leading the way in the “Race to the Bottom”. It's a disgrace that there is now an Airline that functions like an employment agency. They see Pilots as some kind of temp workers. A quick read on their website clearly shows their “toss 'em in the dumpster when we no longer need them” attitude.
All the most unpleasant people I have encountered in this Industry have been in Holland. That includes the biggest liars/thieves/frauds/criminals and most arrogant incompetent clowns I have ever come across.
“Fly at any Price”
I see this mentality in a lot of the posts on the board. Some people will sign any contract no matter how bad the terms. People either don't know or don't care – both attitudes are unacceptable.
The idea seems to be to gain experience any way you can then use this as a stepping stone to a better job. Whilst this may have worked in the past – times have changed. I have a simple question for those of you who think like this.
Where are you going to go?
I'll answer that for you: Nowhere.
There are virtually no jobs so you are stuck at Airline X or Y for the foreseeable future. The problem is that if terms and conditions are crap you're stuck with them as well.
Crap terms and conditions in your 20's doesn't sound too bad? The Ends justify the Means?
How about crap terms and conditions in your 40's? How does that sound?
How will you ever pay off your training costs? Simple; You will be unable.
Retirement? You can forget ever being able to do that. There's a reason your colleagues are working as long as possible.
“I don't care about Terms and Conditions – I just want to fly big shiny airplanes!”
Another common tone in a lot of the threads on this board. Well I have news for you. By accepting sub standard Terms and Conditions you are putting pressure on the rest of us. You may be happy flying big shiny airplanes for 50% of what you should be making with secondary benefits that are a joke – but I'm not!
When your actions jeopardise my Terms and Conditions – rest assured I will say something as one Professional to another.
Some examples of sub standard Terms and Conditions
Paying to have your application processed.
Comment:- What most people don't seem to realise is recruitment is a two way street. Not only are you trying to convince the company to hire you – the company should also be trying to convince you that you want to work for them. It has to be a match from both sides. Paying to apply leaves a bad first impression.
Paying cash for a Type Rating
I'm not talking about self sponsored Type Ratings – I'm talking about an Airline that makes you pay cash for your training. We've had examples where people paid Euro 45000 for a Type Rating (which cost about half that). They got back 15000 after one year – but they had to pay tax on this as it was seen as income – oops!
Others paid Euro 30000 for a Type Rating and ended up with no cash/no job/no Type Rating.
Everyone who did this got screwed – even if some of them would like to pretend that this wasn't the case.
Mixed Fleet Flying (Flying multiple aircraft types) for free
Flying multiple aircraft types means you are more productive for the company. More productivity = more money. That's the real reason so many companies don't fly mixed fleet – they don't want to pay more.
I get paid extra for flying A330/A340 mixed fleet because I'm more productive.
Mixed fleet flying being done with no extra compensation equates to a salary decrease (higher productivity for the same money). Of course once the precedent has been set everyone else will get the same terms and conditions. Nice!
Signing a bond for a second Type Rating
That is not normally the case (although it is now being introduced at several Airlines around the world). You are bonded for your first Type Rating with the company only - second and subsequent ratings have no bond. Again once a precedent has been set everyone else will have to accept the same conditions.
Non Flying duties
Some people will have the chance to do other things beside flying (eg:- Ground Instruction). If you do extra work for the company make sure you are compensated accordingly. Do not work for free. If you weren't doing the job they'd have to hire someone – more expensive then paying you.
Pensions
This is another area people don't pay any attention to – until it is too late. The fact that colleagues are working as long as possible because they have to should be a wake up call that action needs to be taken.
I heard that a former colleague has had to sell everything as his Pension was inadequate.
Think you are going to be OK? Guess again!
Understand that pensions are exponential in nature. The biggest part of your pension is compounded interest.
Example:- The money you put in your pension doubles every 10 years.
Over 40 years that will look like this (oversimplified to make a point).
1/2/4/8 For every 1 unit you put in you end up with 8 units after 40 years
Now look at what happens if you only have 20 years of pension
1/2 For every one untit you put in you end up with only 2 units after 20 years.
You end up with only 1/4 of what you would have had for 40 years. The initial investment is critical to the final amount. The longer that money grows the higher your pension will be.
Too many people have no clue what their Pension will look like. It takes a few hours of time to get an independent advisor to run the numbers for you. Some of you will be shocked at how little you will end up with.
Signing a bond for a Type Rating the company gets for free
When an Airline leases a brand new aircraft this includes a standard “package” that includes training for 6 crews. This training carries minimal costs for the company. If your company is training at the manufacturers headquarters this is why.
Is it reasonable to be bonded for training that the company gets for free?
Getting screwed over and over again
From posts on this Forum it is clear to me that some people have been screwed everytime they've signed a contract. I really think that some people are so naïve they're not even aware of the impact of their actions.
One of the most tragic posts I have ever seen on this Forum was from an individual who stated that Airline X was a benefit because it led to Airline Y etc. etc. What this poster failed to understand was that he was getting screwed at Airline X then getting screwed at Airline Y etc. etc.
Runner up - all the posts about an Airline that was so badly run they couldn't even pay their staff on time. There were no shortage of people defending this Airline (while they were getting screwed by the same company they were defending!). One thread about this Airline had over 30000 views!
That's part one. If I've missed anything please feel free to add to my post.
Coming (soon) in part 2: Strategies that are used to screw you whilst keeping you dumb and happy.
Last edited:
. The rest could mean furlough. 
