CRJ-100 Crash 08/27
- Thread starter Pantryman
- Start date
FlyHigh
New member
Ik weet alleen dat het een Delta Comair kist is. Tot zo ver 1 survivor. Lexington, KY was ik vorige maand nog. Niks vreemd daar in de procedure. Vorige week nog me "last invitation" letter gekregen om voor Comair te gaan vliegen. Drama man.
Het was trouwens een CRJ-200. Onderweg naar Atlanta (waar ik nu toevallig zit) 49 dood. 1 Overlevende. Volgends bronnen waren zij "cleared for takeoff" rwy 04-22 die iets meer dan 7000' lang is. Ipv de rwy 08-26 die zij namen en maar 3500' lang is.
Reken maar dat ze goed onder de loop komen te staan. Rest and Duty time etc. Delta gaat al lekker. Comair ging wel wat beter de laatste tijd, maar dit helpt niet echt natuurlijk.
Reality check voor diegene die een piloot als een knoppendrukker zien. Er moet dus ook nog worden nagedacht!
Het was trouwens een CRJ-200. Onderweg naar Atlanta (waar ik nu toevallig zit) 49 dood. 1 Overlevende. Volgends bronnen waren zij "cleared for takeoff" rwy 04-22 die iets meer dan 7000' lang is. Ipv de rwy 08-26 die zij namen en maar 3500' lang is.
Reken maar dat ze goed onder de loop komen te staan. Rest and Duty time etc. Delta gaat al lekker. Comair ging wel wat beter de laatste tijd, maar dit helpt niet echt natuurlijk.
Reality check voor diegene die een piloot als een knoppendrukker zien. Er moet dus ook nog worden nagedacht!
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Niks aan toe te voegen. Kreeg het trieste nieuws in de vroege morgen onderweg naar Housten.. Moet helaas gelijk door naar STL waar ik wat meer info kreeg... Indd hebben ze de verkeerde baan genomen.... 3500' baantje ligt vlak naast de 'grote' baan. hadden pas na V1 door dat het eind een beetje snel in zicht kwam (denk ik) en besloten (denk ik) vol gas door te knallen en hopen op het beste.
F/O ligt in kritieke toestand in het ziekenhuis.. Alle PAX incl capt (1 jumpseater ?) en cabine personeel dood. o.a. een pas getrouwd stelletje zat in de kist. Deel van onze final line up check is oa het confirmen van de RWY waar we op staan.. Wil er verder niet te veel op in gaan op dit moment nog. Feit is dat ze een veels te dure prijs hebben betaald.
Zeer trieste dag.
FD
F/O ligt in kritieke toestand in het ziekenhuis.. Alle PAX incl capt (1 jumpseater ?) en cabine personeel dood. o.a. een pas getrouwd stelletje zat in de kist. Deel van onze final line up check is oa het confirmen van de RWY waar we op staan.. Wil er verder niet te veel op in gaan op dit moment nog. Feit is dat ze een veels te dure prijs hebben betaald.
Zeer trieste dag.
FD
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METAR KLEX 060827122803
KLEX 271154Z 22006KT 6SM HZ OVC055 23/20 A3004 RMK AO2 SLP161
60001 70001 T02330200 10250 20233 53012
KLEX 271054Z 22008KT 8SM FEW047 BKN060 OVC090 23/20 A3002 RMK
AO2 RAB12E51 SLP154 P0001 T02330200
KLEX 270954Z 20007KT 8SM FEW090 SCT120 24/19 A3000 RMK AO2
SLP147 T02390194
DCOM NUM: WX8697855
Query Time: Aug 27 2006 12:28:33 GMT
May all my many Comair friends be safe........for those who have lost, many condolances. God speed
Adding to the confusion is weather. A loop radar plot from MSN Weather Lexington Ky shows the tail end of a line of weather going through LEX at about 0600 am. Rain reduced visibility could mask runway ident or windshear after departure. Obviously too soon to speculate, but wx could have been a contributing factor.
KLEX 271154Z 22006KT 6SM HZ OVC055 23/20 A3004 RMK AO2 SLP161
60001 70001 T02330200 10250 20233 53012
KLEX 271054Z 22008KT 8SM FEW047 BKN060 OVC090 23/20 A3002 RMK
AO2 RAB12E51 SLP154 P0001 T02330200
KLEX 270954Z 20007KT 8SM FEW090 SCT120 24/19 A3000 RMK AO2
SLP147 T02390194
DCOM NUM: WX8697855
Query Time: Aug 27 2006 12:28:33 GMT
May all my many Comair friends be safe........for those who have lost, many condolances. God speed
Adding to the confusion is weather. A loop radar plot from MSN Weather Lexington Ky shows the tail end of a line of weather going through LEX at about 0600 am. Rain reduced visibility could mask runway ident or windshear after departure. Obviously too soon to speculate, but wx could have been a contributing factor.
Biscane
New member
Ik heb bij m'n vorige maatschappij nog met de surviving FO gevlogen. Altijd goed gemotiveerd. Talk about a small "aviaiton" world.
Nou survive je een crash maar de vraag is natuurlijk hoe komt hij er uiteindelijk vanaf? Waarschijnlijk onder de brandwonden en revalidatie gaat jaren duren en is zeer pijnlijk.
Nou survive je een crash maar de vraag is natuurlijk hoe komt hij er uiteindelijk vanaf? Waarschijnlijk onder de brandwonden en revalidatie gaat jaren duren en is zeer pijnlijk.
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Abaco -
Sorry voor het verlies. Hij kreeg dus een stoeltje achterin. Is AirTran inmiddels in CASS ?? trieste is, als hij een stoeltje voorin had moeten nemen was dit allicht niet gebeurd, aangezien LEX zn hometown/home airport is... Maargoed, als als als kopen we zo weinig voor.
Biscane -
Vroeg me indd ook al bij mezelf af wat voor trauma je daar aan over weet te houden als je de enige overlevende bent... Ben erg blij dat hij nog in leven is en hoop op een volledig herstel.
Sorry voor het verlies. Hij kreeg dus een stoeltje achterin. Is AirTran inmiddels in CASS ?? trieste is, als hij een stoeltje voorin had moeten nemen was dit allicht niet gebeurd, aangezien LEX zn hometown/home airport is... Maargoed, als als als kopen we zo weinig voor.
Biscane -
Vroeg me indd ook al bij mezelf af wat voor trauma je daar aan over weet te houden als je de enige overlevende bent... Ben erg blij dat hij nog in leven is en hoop op een volledig herstel.
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comair.com
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Comair provides updated information regarding Flight 5191
Comair President Don Bornhorst provided the following updates regarding Flight 5191 in a press conference held at 2:30 p.m. today in Lexington, Ky.
Comair Flight 5191, a 50-seat Bombardier CRJ100 operating from Lexington's Blue Grass Airport to Atlanta, was involved in an accident at approximately 6 a.m. today near the Lexington airport. The flight was carrying 47 passengers and three crew members.
Comair has confirmed that the following crew members were onboard Flight 5191: Captain Jeffrey Clay, 35, has been an employee of Comair since November 1999 and is based at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport; First Officer James Polehinke, 44, has been an employee of Comair since March 2002 and is based at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York; Flight Attendant Kelly Heyer, 27, has been a Comair employee since July 2004 and is based at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York. There was one survivor of the accident.
Comair continues to contact families of those who were onboard Flight 5191 and a dedicated toll-free phone line remains available to family and friends with inquiries about this accident. The center can be reached at 1-800-801-0088.
Employee volunteers of the Comair and Delta Care Team were dispatched to assist family members and loved ones of passengers and crew on Comair Flight 5191 shortly after it was learned that the flight had been involved in an accident. An initial group of 54 team members was dispatched from around the system to Lexington and Atlanta where the families of passengers were waiting.
Comair is cooperating fully with all authorities who will be investigating this accident, including the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and federal, local and state law enforcement agencies. The final determination of the probable cause of the accident will ultimately by determined by the NTSB.
Comair has confirmed the following information about the CRJ100 involved in this accident.
Aircraft Type: 50-seat Bombardier CRJ100 regional jet (Model: CL600-2B19)
Tail number 7472
Registration number N431CA
Manufactured in: January 2001
Delivered to Comair: January 30, 2001
Airframe Cycles (total number of landings): 12,048
Airframe Hours (flight time): 14,536.2
Last overnight maintenance check for aircraft: Lexington 8-26-06
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Comair provides updated information regarding Flight 5191
Comair President Don Bornhorst provided the following updates regarding Flight 5191 in a press conference held at 2:30 p.m. today in Lexington, Ky.
Comair Flight 5191, a 50-seat Bombardier CRJ100 operating from Lexington's Blue Grass Airport to Atlanta, was involved in an accident at approximately 6 a.m. today near the Lexington airport. The flight was carrying 47 passengers and three crew members.
Comair has confirmed that the following crew members were onboard Flight 5191: Captain Jeffrey Clay, 35, has been an employee of Comair since November 1999 and is based at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport; First Officer James Polehinke, 44, has been an employee of Comair since March 2002 and is based at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York; Flight Attendant Kelly Heyer, 27, has been a Comair employee since July 2004 and is based at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York. There was one survivor of the accident.
Comair continues to contact families of those who were onboard Flight 5191 and a dedicated toll-free phone line remains available to family and friends with inquiries about this accident. The center can be reached at 1-800-801-0088.
Employee volunteers of the Comair and Delta Care Team were dispatched to assist family members and loved ones of passengers and crew on Comair Flight 5191 shortly after it was learned that the flight had been involved in an accident. An initial group of 54 team members was dispatched from around the system to Lexington and Atlanta where the families of passengers were waiting.
Comair is cooperating fully with all authorities who will be investigating this accident, including the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and federal, local and state law enforcement agencies. The final determination of the probable cause of the accident will ultimately by determined by the NTSB.
Comair has confirmed the following information about the CRJ100 involved in this accident.
Aircraft Type: 50-seat Bombardier CRJ100 regional jet (Model: CL600-2B19)
Tail number 7472
Registration number N431CA
Manufactured in: January 2001
Delivered to Comair: January 30, 2001
Airframe Cycles (total number of landings): 12,048
Airframe Hours (flight time): 14,536.2
Last overnight maintenance check for aircraft: Lexington 8-26-06
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msnbc.com
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LEXINGTON, Ky. - The taxi route for commercial jets using Blue Grass Airport’s main runway was altered a week before Comair Flight 5191 took the wrong runway and crashed, killing all but one of the 50 people aboard, the airport’s director said Monday.
Both the old and new taxiways cross over the shorter general aviation runway where the commuter jet tried to take off early Sunday, Blue Grass Airport Executive Director Michael Gobb told The Associated Press.
The runway repaving was completed late on the previous Sunday, Gobb said. It wasn’t clear if the Comair pilots aboard Flight 5191 had been there since the change. Comair operates that regular 6 a.m. weekend flight to Atlanta from Lexington, but another commuter airline takes over that commute during the week.
“It’s slightly different than it used to be,” said Charlie Monette, president of Aero-Tech flight school, which is based at the airport. “Could there have been some confusion associated with that? That’s certainly a possibility.”
The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating the crash and could not immediately be reached for comment.
Conversations between the plane’s cockpit and the person staffing the control tower before dawn Sunday morning mentioned only the airport’s main commercial strip, Runway 22, NTSB member Debbie Hersman said earlier Monday.
Somehow, the commuter jet ended up on the airport’s other runway instead, Runway 26 — a cracked surface meant for small planes that was much too short for Comair’s twin-engine jet.
What followed was the worst U.S. plane disaster since 2001.
Clipping trees
The pilots tried to lift off, but the plane clipped trees, then quickly crashed in a field and burst into flames, killing everyone aboard but a critically injured co-pilot who was pulled from the cracked cockpit.
Although Blue Grass Airport’s Runway 22 is 7,000 feet, the plane departed from the 3,500-foot general aviation Runway 26. The twin-engine CRJ-100 would have needed 5,000 feet to fully get off the ground, aviation experts said.
There also were clues for the pilot: Signs marking the right way. Less lighting. And severely cracked concrete — not the type of surface typically found on runways for commercial routes.
Left now are only scuff marks on the wrong runway and the wreckage of a plane scattered into pieces across a field about a mile away from the airport.
The plane’s two pilots were familiar with the twin-engine CRJ-100, and that plane in particular, the plane’s maintenance was up to date, and it wasn’t an old aircraft, Comair President Don Bornhorst said. Comair, based in Erlanger, Ky., is a subsidiary of Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines Inc.
“We are absolutely, totally committed to doing everything humanly possible to determine the cause of this accident,” Bornhorst said Sunday, following the worst American plane disaster in nearly five years.
Both of the plane’s flight recorders were being reviewed.
Officer pulls out survivor
Amid the devastation and lost lives, there was one story of heroism: Police Officer Bryan Jared reached into the broken cockpit and burned his arms as he pulled out James Polehinke, the plane’s first officer. Polehinke, the only survivor, was listed in critical condition at University of Kentucky Hospital.
A light rain was falling Sunday when the plane taxied away from the main runway, which had been repaved last week. The Atlanta-bound plane plowed through a perimeter fence and crashed in a field less than a mile from the shorter runway.
It’s rare for a plane to get on the wrong runway, but “sometimes with the intersecting runways, pilots go down the wrong one,” said Saint Louis University aerospace professor emeritus Paul Czysz.
Comair Flight 5191 was the third of a dozen early morning takeoffs in Lexington. The two previous planes used the longer runway without incident, an aviation source said.
There was one air controller on duty, which is standard for that airport at that hour, an aviation source said. The controller had worked all night and was at the end of the shift.
A passenger boarding a flight to Atlanta on Monday morning from the Lexington airport expressed some concerns.
“Obviously there is some anxiety when something like this happens, but it is not something that would stop me from going,” said Mark Carroll, a computer consultant from Lexington. “Things happen when you get older, it happens to everyone. You keep doing what you’re doing.”
The crash marks the end of what has been called the “safest period in aviation history” in the United States. It was the worst crash since an American Airlines jetliner went down in New York in November 2001, killing 265 people. An Air Midwest crash in North Carolina in January 2003 killed 21 people.
Intact but in flames
Aerial images of the latest crash site in the rolling hills of Kentucky’s horse country showed trees damaged at the end of the short runway and the nose of the plane almost parallel to the small strip.
When rescuers reached it, the plane was largely intact but in flames. “They were taking off, so I’m sure they had a lot of fuel on board,” Fayette County Coroner Gary Ginn said. “Most of the injuries are going to be due to fire-related deaths.”
Those killed included a newlywed couple starting their honeymoon, a director of Habitat for Humanity International, and a Florida man who had caught an early flight home to be with his children.
Most of the passengers aboard the flight had planned to connect to other flights in Atlanta and did not have family waiting for them, said the Rev. Harold Boyce, a volunteer chaplain at the airport.
The crew members who died were Capt. Jeffrey Clay, who was hired in 1999, and flight attendant Kelly Heyer, hired in 2004. Polehinke has been with Comair since 2002.
The plane had undergone routine maintenance as recently as Saturday and had 14,500 flight hours, “consistent with aircraft of that age,” Bornhorst said.
Jon Hooker, a former minor-league baseball player, and Scarlett Parsley had wed the night before the crash in a fairy-tale ceremony complete with a horse-drawn carriage and 300 friends.
“It’s so tragic because he was so happy last night,” said Keith Madison, who coached Hooker’s baseball team at the University of Kentucky and attended the wedding. “It’s just an incredible turn of events. It’s really painful.”
Pat Smith, a member of Habitat for Humanity International’s Board of Directors, died on his way to Gulfport, Miss., to work on rebuilding houses, Habitat spokesman Duane Bates said.
Another passenger, Charles Lykins of Naples, Fla., caught an early flight Sunday so he could get home to his two young children after visiting friends and family in the Lexington area, said friend Paul Richardson.
Comair is a feeder carrier for Delta Air Lines. Both are restructuring in bankruptcy.
The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.
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LEXINGTON, Ky. - The taxi route for commercial jets using Blue Grass Airport’s main runway was altered a week before Comair Flight 5191 took the wrong runway and crashed, killing all but one of the 50 people aboard, the airport’s director said Monday.
Both the old and new taxiways cross over the shorter general aviation runway where the commuter jet tried to take off early Sunday, Blue Grass Airport Executive Director Michael Gobb told The Associated Press.
The runway repaving was completed late on the previous Sunday, Gobb said. It wasn’t clear if the Comair pilots aboard Flight 5191 had been there since the change. Comair operates that regular 6 a.m. weekend flight to Atlanta from Lexington, but another commuter airline takes over that commute during the week.
“It’s slightly different than it used to be,” said Charlie Monette, president of Aero-Tech flight school, which is based at the airport. “Could there have been some confusion associated with that? That’s certainly a possibility.”
The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating the crash and could not immediately be reached for comment.
Conversations between the plane’s cockpit and the person staffing the control tower before dawn Sunday morning mentioned only the airport’s main commercial strip, Runway 22, NTSB member Debbie Hersman said earlier Monday.
Somehow, the commuter jet ended up on the airport’s other runway instead, Runway 26 — a cracked surface meant for small planes that was much too short for Comair’s twin-engine jet.
What followed was the worst U.S. plane disaster since 2001.
Clipping trees
The pilots tried to lift off, but the plane clipped trees, then quickly crashed in a field and burst into flames, killing everyone aboard but a critically injured co-pilot who was pulled from the cracked cockpit.
Although Blue Grass Airport’s Runway 22 is 7,000 feet, the plane departed from the 3,500-foot general aviation Runway 26. The twin-engine CRJ-100 would have needed 5,000 feet to fully get off the ground, aviation experts said.
There also were clues for the pilot: Signs marking the right way. Less lighting. And severely cracked concrete — not the type of surface typically found on runways for commercial routes.
Left now are only scuff marks on the wrong runway and the wreckage of a plane scattered into pieces across a field about a mile away from the airport.
The plane’s two pilots were familiar with the twin-engine CRJ-100, and that plane in particular, the plane’s maintenance was up to date, and it wasn’t an old aircraft, Comair President Don Bornhorst said. Comair, based in Erlanger, Ky., is a subsidiary of Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines Inc.
“We are absolutely, totally committed to doing everything humanly possible to determine the cause of this accident,” Bornhorst said Sunday, following the worst American plane disaster in nearly five years.
Both of the plane’s flight recorders were being reviewed.
Officer pulls out survivor
Amid the devastation and lost lives, there was one story of heroism: Police Officer Bryan Jared reached into the broken cockpit and burned his arms as he pulled out James Polehinke, the plane’s first officer. Polehinke, the only survivor, was listed in critical condition at University of Kentucky Hospital.
A light rain was falling Sunday when the plane taxied away from the main runway, which had been repaved last week. The Atlanta-bound plane plowed through a perimeter fence and crashed in a field less than a mile from the shorter runway.
It’s rare for a plane to get on the wrong runway, but “sometimes with the intersecting runways, pilots go down the wrong one,” said Saint Louis University aerospace professor emeritus Paul Czysz.
Comair Flight 5191 was the third of a dozen early morning takeoffs in Lexington. The two previous planes used the longer runway without incident, an aviation source said.
There was one air controller on duty, which is standard for that airport at that hour, an aviation source said. The controller had worked all night and was at the end of the shift.
A passenger boarding a flight to Atlanta on Monday morning from the Lexington airport expressed some concerns.
“Obviously there is some anxiety when something like this happens, but it is not something that would stop me from going,” said Mark Carroll, a computer consultant from Lexington. “Things happen when you get older, it happens to everyone. You keep doing what you’re doing.”
The crash marks the end of what has been called the “safest period in aviation history” in the United States. It was the worst crash since an American Airlines jetliner went down in New York in November 2001, killing 265 people. An Air Midwest crash in North Carolina in January 2003 killed 21 people.
Intact but in flames
Aerial images of the latest crash site in the rolling hills of Kentucky’s horse country showed trees damaged at the end of the short runway and the nose of the plane almost parallel to the small strip.
When rescuers reached it, the plane was largely intact but in flames. “They were taking off, so I’m sure they had a lot of fuel on board,” Fayette County Coroner Gary Ginn said. “Most of the injuries are going to be due to fire-related deaths.”
Those killed included a newlywed couple starting their honeymoon, a director of Habitat for Humanity International, and a Florida man who had caught an early flight home to be with his children.
Most of the passengers aboard the flight had planned to connect to other flights in Atlanta and did not have family waiting for them, said the Rev. Harold Boyce, a volunteer chaplain at the airport.
The crew members who died were Capt. Jeffrey Clay, who was hired in 1999, and flight attendant Kelly Heyer, hired in 2004. Polehinke has been with Comair since 2002.
The plane had undergone routine maintenance as recently as Saturday and had 14,500 flight hours, “consistent with aircraft of that age,” Bornhorst said.
Jon Hooker, a former minor-league baseball player, and Scarlett Parsley had wed the night before the crash in a fairy-tale ceremony complete with a horse-drawn carriage and 300 friends.
“It’s so tragic because he was so happy last night,” said Keith Madison, who coached Hooker’s baseball team at the University of Kentucky and attended the wedding. “It’s just an incredible turn of events. It’s really painful.”
Pat Smith, a member of Habitat for Humanity International’s Board of Directors, died on his way to Gulfport, Miss., to work on rebuilding houses, Habitat spokesman Duane Bates said.
Another passenger, Charles Lykins of Naples, Fla., caught an early flight Sunday so he could get home to his two young children after visiting friends and family in the Lexington area, said friend Paul Richardson.
Comair is a feeder carrier for Delta Air Lines. Both are restructuring in bankruptcy.
The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.
Abaco-Air
New member
FD,
nog geen CASS, men blijft roepen 30 sept a.s. we zullen zien.
Zelf ken ik de FL F/O niet, maar het is vervelend (en dat is erg zacht uitgedrukt) voor iedereen betrokken in deze crash.
Natuurlijk zet dit iedereen aan het denken. Met de info die ik nu heb, en dat is niet meer dan wat de media brengt, komt bij mij vooral de gedachte naar voren dat we zoveel info krijgen in onze digitale cockpits, dat het soms een overflow of information is.
Mijn F/O deze trip heeft zelf als CA gevlogen op een CRJ-200, en herinnert zich dat afgezien van de runway symbool er geen duidelijke aanwijzing is vwb. de lining up met de in de FMS aangegeven runway of use. (Mijn 717 heeft een blauwe track lijn aan de departure einde van de gekozen runway). Ikzelf ondervond de laatste dagen dat ik daardoor nooit de heading meer bekeek, maar wel de blauwe lijn recht omhoog en mijn vliegtuig neerzet zodat ik de runway numbers kan lezen.
Ik kan me ook goed voorstellen dat de lighting situatie van runway 26 een rol speelt, zeker als deze 'normally OFF' was en nu (misschien) 'ON'.
Al met al veel gedachten over hoe dit iedereen zou kunnen overkomen en ik raad iedereen aan om bij zichzelf te raden te gaan hoe dit zoveel mogelijk tegen te gaan. Check Check, Recheck ! En neem de tijd...
Genoeg van mijn kant, ik ga vliegen !
Abaco-Air
nog geen CASS, men blijft roepen 30 sept a.s. we zullen zien.
Zelf ken ik de FL F/O niet, maar het is vervelend (en dat is erg zacht uitgedrukt) voor iedereen betrokken in deze crash.
Natuurlijk zet dit iedereen aan het denken. Met de info die ik nu heb, en dat is niet meer dan wat de media brengt, komt bij mij vooral de gedachte naar voren dat we zoveel info krijgen in onze digitale cockpits, dat het soms een overflow of information is.
Mijn F/O deze trip heeft zelf als CA gevlogen op een CRJ-200, en herinnert zich dat afgezien van de runway symbool er geen duidelijke aanwijzing is vwb. de lining up met de in de FMS aangegeven runway of use. (Mijn 717 heeft een blauwe track lijn aan de departure einde van de gekozen runway). Ikzelf ondervond de laatste dagen dat ik daardoor nooit de heading meer bekeek, maar wel de blauwe lijn recht omhoog en mijn vliegtuig neerzet zodat ik de runway numbers kan lezen.
Ik kan me ook goed voorstellen dat de lighting situatie van runway 26 een rol speelt, zeker als deze 'normally OFF' was en nu (misschien) 'ON'.
Al met al veel gedachten over hoe dit iedereen zou kunnen overkomen en ik raad iedereen aan om bij zichzelf te raden te gaan hoe dit zoveel mogelijk tegen te gaan. Check Check, Recheck ! En neem de tijd...
Genoeg van mijn kant, ik ga vliegen !
Abaco-Air
PitchDisconnect
New member
Nog geen 150km van de gecrashte CRJ is gisteren nog een vliegtuig gecrasht. Een Cessna 401 en alle 7 inzittenden hebb het niet overleeft.... Het moet niet erger worden
metrodriver
New member
toen we allemaal nog kleine kistjes vlogen moest je je dg checken met de runway nummers, nu doe je dat ergens tijdens de taxi en kijk je er verder niet meer naar.
Waren er geen clues? Tuurlijk: ruwe baan vergeleken met de gladde baan waar ze een dag eerder op waren geland, ander soort baanverlichting, ander soort strepen, taxiway signs.
Waarschijnlijk hebben ze een verkorte nachtrust gehad, geen ontbijt, geen koffie of thee om iets wakkerder te worden en dus reeds vermoeid aan de trip begonnen. Korte taxi met een aantal checklisten die snel doorgelopen moeten worden waardoor de fo de hele tijd met zijn hoofd in de cockpit zit en de captain voor 50%.
Klinkt bekend? Zeker de commuter piloten weten hoe waar dit is. De schuld zal wel bij de vliegers komen te liggen, maar een fout zoals deze is snel gemaakt. Dit ongeval zal waarschijnlijk op vele CRM cursussen (en recurrent training) te zien zijn
Waren er geen clues? Tuurlijk: ruwe baan vergeleken met de gladde baan waar ze een dag eerder op waren geland, ander soort baanverlichting, ander soort strepen, taxiway signs.
Waarschijnlijk hebben ze een verkorte nachtrust gehad, geen ontbijt, geen koffie of thee om iets wakkerder te worden en dus reeds vermoeid aan de trip begonnen. Korte taxi met een aantal checklisten die snel doorgelopen moeten worden waardoor de fo de hele tijd met zijn hoofd in de cockpit zit en de captain voor 50%.
Klinkt bekend? Zeker de commuter piloten weten hoe waar dit is. De schuld zal wel bij de vliegers komen te liggen, maar een fout zoals deze is snel gemaakt. Dit ongeval zal waarschijnlijk op vele CRM cursussen (en recurrent training) te zien zijn
touch and go
Member
Metrodriver slaat de spijker op z'n kop.
06.00 departure, reken zelf maar uit wanneer deze gasten op hebben moeten staan.
Uurtje of 04.00 misschien?
Vroege vluchten zijn ontzettend risky vanwege slaapgebrek.
06.00 departure, reken zelf maar uit wanneer deze gasten op hebben moeten staan.
Uurtje of 04.00 misschien?
Vroege vluchten zijn ontzettend risky vanwege slaapgebrek.
Abaco-Air
New member
Als ze idd. een korte nacht gehad hebben, ik lees/hoor nog steeds verschillende verhalen, dan zal dat misschien eindelijk de afschaffing van de CDO's zijn.
Toen ze het verkeerde vliegtuig preflighten, raakten ze 'behind'. Op dat moment alles op alles gezet om toch op tijd te vertrekken.. Haastige spoed....
Heeft iedereen de foto's gezien van de nieuwe taxiroute ? Oplijnen op beide runways vergde een ong. 140 graden left turn.. interessant.. (dwz. oplijnen op 22 in de oude situatie)
Daar bovenop .. als ze de yellow brick road volgde, hebben ze nooit de runway numbers (ie. 26) gezien, die waren helemaal aan het begin van de baan.
De baan 26 had een hump en dus zie je het einde van de baan niet.
ATC.. is ook een faktor, met meer dan 1 paar ogen zie je meer en was de vlucht 'in de gaten gehouden', dan was dit misschien voorkomen.
Tot zover mijn gedachte over de error chain.
Al met al een sobering crash.. het zet je aan het denken.
abaco-air
Toen ze het verkeerde vliegtuig preflighten, raakten ze 'behind'. Op dat moment alles op alles gezet om toch op tijd te vertrekken.. Haastige spoed....
Heeft iedereen de foto's gezien van de nieuwe taxiroute ? Oplijnen op beide runways vergde een ong. 140 graden left turn.. interessant.. (dwz. oplijnen op 22 in de oude situatie)
Daar bovenop .. als ze de yellow brick road volgde, hebben ze nooit de runway numbers (ie. 26) gezien, die waren helemaal aan het begin van de baan.
De baan 26 had een hump en dus zie je het einde van de baan niet.
ATC.. is ook een faktor, met meer dan 1 paar ogen zie je meer en was de vlucht 'in de gaten gehouden', dan was dit misschien voorkomen.
Tot zover mijn gedachte over de error chain.
Al met al een sobering crash.. het zet je aan het denken.
abaco-air
6
676$
Guest
klinkt zeker bekend vwb reduced rest and all the crap.. 8 uur rust = 4 uur slaap (met mazzel).. Lekker als je dan op dag 4 nog ff 5 legs moet vliegen voordat je aan je commute naar huis kunt beginnen.
MAAR heren... CDO's / high speeds etc blijven gewoon bestaan...
(helaas ?) hadden beide heren genoeg rust.. Capt een uur of 28 (zie je niet bij veel regionals) en de f/o vloog een red eye van JFK, kreeg een deadhead naar lex en had 13 uur 'rust' voordat zn duty begon dus die theorie gaat niet op.
I hate to say this maar alles wijst indd naar een grote grote pilot error.
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schaamteloos van FI.com
Nobody is arguing the pilot error. What we ARE saying is that there are factors that deteriorate a pilots state of mind to the point that these kind of things are going to happen when a fresh, clear mind would have been able to focus better.
Your accusations and self righteous remarks point out that you are either not a professional pilot with any level of experience, or that despite being a pilot you have SO MUCH more growing up to do. Let's all hope you are not the next one to have an accident and have bigmouths pi$$ing on your grave.
Nobody I have seen said 28 hrs of rest...(FROM ANOTHER POST:They weren't necessarily flying a trip from the bid packet. The CA was on reserve. The FO and FA were displaced lineholders, translation: reserves, on a totally different trip than the original.)...but 8 hours from gate to gate?! Come on, you can't believe that is reasonable. The average US citizen has 15 hours from punch in to punch out AND has a scheduled 1 hour lunch. Most regional pilots only dream of 15 hours, much less a mandatory luch break. Running to McDonalds on a 20 minute turn is NOT a lunch break.
I will repeat myself, nobody denies the bottom line of pilot error. But what kind of an ignorant fool are you to say that the FAA and NTSB are justified in the current rest rules? And as for the travelling public, if they want such high safety, they need to pay for it.
---------------
It has been proven that the CA had 28 in LEX before his flight out that morning. It has also been stated by his widow that she last talked to him before she went to bed at 10pm. Now, if the CA choose to be up until 10pm for a 6am dept then that was his decision. His widow also stated that he had flown out of that airport numerous times in his career with Comair. As for the FO, no real confirmation on how much rest the FO got the night before. The FO may have been the one at the helm, but shouldn't the CA have realized he was on the wrong runway? Did he not taxi the aircraft out there? When they realized their runway had no lighting but the one they crossed over did, shouldn't a bulb have went off inside someone's head? As more details come out, it sure hasn't made the crew look any rosier. But it's my opinion, and I'm not bashing yours. If you feel you are unfit to fly, don't fly.
=========
Quote:
Originally Posted by XPOO
It has been proven that the CA had 28 in LEX before his flight out that morning. It has also been stated by his widow that she last talked to him before she went to bed at 10pm. Now, if the CA choose to be up until 10pm for a 6am dept then that was his decision. His widow also stated that he had flown out of that airport numerous times in his career with Comair. As for the FO, no real confirmation on how much rest the FO got the night before. The FO may have been the one at the helm, but shouldn't the CA have realized he was on the wrong runway? Did he not taxi the aircraft out there? When they realized their runway had no lighting but the one they crossed over did, shouldn't a bulb have went off inside someone's head? As more details come out, it sure hasn't made the crew look any rosier. But it's my opinion, and I'm not bashing yours. If you feel you are unfit to fly, don't fly.
1. The crew did not taxi over a lit runway to get to an unlit runway as you suggest. Apparently your vast dispatch experience and skills haven't taught you how to read a simple taxi diagram. Runway 26 (the accident runway) is the first runway you come to on the taxi out. To make matters worse, the usual taxi route to runway 22 was blocked and rerouted, possibly causing further confusion.
2. You obviously have no understanding of circadian rhythm research. It doesn't matter if a crew had 28 hours of off-duty time. What matters is what their entire schedule looks like. If your first day includes a late evening arrival, followed by a late start the next day with only one leg to a long overnight, followed by a 4am wake up call on the 3rd day, then your entire system is a mess. The human body is not designed to deal with such randomness and chaos. A consistent schedule is necessary to provide adequate rest and performance. Do a little research.
3. You're a %#$%ing d0uche-bag.
MAAR heren... CDO's / high speeds etc blijven gewoon bestaan...
(helaas ?) hadden beide heren genoeg rust.. Capt een uur of 28 (zie je niet bij veel regionals) en de f/o vloog een red eye van JFK, kreeg een deadhead naar lex en had 13 uur 'rust' voordat zn duty begon dus die theorie gaat niet op.
I hate to say this maar alles wijst indd naar een grote grote pilot error.
-----------
schaamteloos van FI.com
Nobody is arguing the pilot error. What we ARE saying is that there are factors that deteriorate a pilots state of mind to the point that these kind of things are going to happen when a fresh, clear mind would have been able to focus better.
Your accusations and self righteous remarks point out that you are either not a professional pilot with any level of experience, or that despite being a pilot you have SO MUCH more growing up to do. Let's all hope you are not the next one to have an accident and have bigmouths pi$$ing on your grave.
Nobody I have seen said 28 hrs of rest...(FROM ANOTHER POST:They weren't necessarily flying a trip from the bid packet. The CA was on reserve. The FO and FA were displaced lineholders, translation: reserves, on a totally different trip than the original.)...but 8 hours from gate to gate?! Come on, you can't believe that is reasonable. The average US citizen has 15 hours from punch in to punch out AND has a scheduled 1 hour lunch. Most regional pilots only dream of 15 hours, much less a mandatory luch break. Running to McDonalds on a 20 minute turn is NOT a lunch break.
I will repeat myself, nobody denies the bottom line of pilot error. But what kind of an ignorant fool are you to say that the FAA and NTSB are justified in the current rest rules? And as for the travelling public, if they want such high safety, they need to pay for it.
---------------
It has been proven that the CA had 28 in LEX before his flight out that morning. It has also been stated by his widow that she last talked to him before she went to bed at 10pm. Now, if the CA choose to be up until 10pm for a 6am dept then that was his decision. His widow also stated that he had flown out of that airport numerous times in his career with Comair. As for the FO, no real confirmation on how much rest the FO got the night before. The FO may have been the one at the helm, but shouldn't the CA have realized he was on the wrong runway? Did he not taxi the aircraft out there? When they realized their runway had no lighting but the one they crossed over did, shouldn't a bulb have went off inside someone's head? As more details come out, it sure hasn't made the crew look any rosier. But it's my opinion, and I'm not bashing yours. If you feel you are unfit to fly, don't fly.
=========
Quote:
Originally Posted by XPOO
It has been proven that the CA had 28 in LEX before his flight out that morning. It has also been stated by his widow that she last talked to him before she went to bed at 10pm. Now, if the CA choose to be up until 10pm for a 6am dept then that was his decision. His widow also stated that he had flown out of that airport numerous times in his career with Comair. As for the FO, no real confirmation on how much rest the FO got the night before. The FO may have been the one at the helm, but shouldn't the CA have realized he was on the wrong runway? Did he not taxi the aircraft out there? When they realized their runway had no lighting but the one they crossed over did, shouldn't a bulb have went off inside someone's head? As more details come out, it sure hasn't made the crew look any rosier. But it's my opinion, and I'm not bashing yours. If you feel you are unfit to fly, don't fly.
1. The crew did not taxi over a lit runway to get to an unlit runway as you suggest. Apparently your vast dispatch experience and skills haven't taught you how to read a simple taxi diagram. Runway 26 (the accident runway) is the first runway you come to on the taxi out. To make matters worse, the usual taxi route to runway 22 was blocked and rerouted, possibly causing further confusion.
2. You obviously have no understanding of circadian rhythm research. It doesn't matter if a crew had 28 hours of off-duty time. What matters is what their entire schedule looks like. If your first day includes a late evening arrival, followed by a late start the next day with only one leg to a long overnight, followed by a 4am wake up call on the 3rd day, then your entire system is a mess. The human body is not designed to deal with such randomness and chaos. A consistent schedule is necessary to provide adequate rest and performance. Do a little research.
3. You're a %#$%ing d0uche-bag.
D
Donkey
Guest
Triest is het!!!!